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- OPINION
New tollway route would rekindle opposition
March 1st, 2010, 4:24 pm · 83 Comments · posted by Pat Brennan, science, environment editor
It’s too soon to tell whether the bruising, years-long fight over a south Orange County tollway is about to be repeated. But a new proposed route for the Foothill South toll road, part of it through Camp Pendleton, would likely draw the same fierce opposition from environmental activists that helped scuttle the previous proposal in 2008.
One of the leading groups opposing the previous plan for the toll road, the San Clemente-based Surfrider Foundation, would spearhead a similar effort if the new proposal were to begin moving through the lengthy approval process, said Mark Rauscher, Surfrider’s assistant environmental director.
And the road’s effect on San Onofre State Beach park would remain a central objection, he said.
“I don’t see how we could accept it,” Rauscher said. “It’s still impacting the state park, it’s still impacting the watershed, it’s still impacting endangered species — a whole list of things.”
Last week, the Foothill/Eastern Transportation Corridor Agency released a Feb. 22 letter from Navy secretary Ray Mabus to Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., rejecting the new proposed toll road route. Mabus said it could interfere with training on a portion of the Camp Pendleton Marine base known as the Sierra Training Area.
Tollway officials said they considered the letter the beginning of talks with the military, not a final rejection.
The agency also discussed details of the new route proposed by its engineers. A variety of adjustments were made to try to accomodate the military as well as opposition groups: changing the boundaries of San Onofre State Beach park so that the road would not cut through the park; building a wall between the road and the training area to screen military training from passing motorists; adding acreage to the park’s southern reaches to make up for the boundary shift to the north; and connecting to Interstate 5 by tunnel to ease concerns about a new freeway ramp being seen from the beach.
The park land is leased to State Parks by the Navy.
“The features of this new concept protect the watershed just as the previous alignment did – as verified by our studies and those of independent experts,” Transportation Corridor Agency CEO Tom Margro said in a statement Monday. “This alignment would be farther away from the campground and beach trails and would include a tunnel connection to I-5 to eliminate any view impact.”
The original route was rejected by the state Coastal Commission in February 2008 after a marathon public hearing packed with opponents — although supporters turned out as well. The tollway agency appealed the decision to the U.S. Commerce secretary, who also rejected the toll road in December of the same year.
Mark Delaplaine, a Coastal Commission analyst who wrote a staff report recommending that the commission reject the toll road, said the staff would have to analyze the new proposal before making any recommendations on it.
State Parks officials also opposed the previous route, but spokesman Roy Stearns said parks was not ready to take a position on the new route.
The toll road agency says the new route is needed to connect the existing 241 toll road to I-5, and to relieve future traffic congestion.
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The beach is called Trestles for a reason, because of the huge train trestles that stretch along the sand for most of the beach. Ever look at a train trestle? It’s filthy with oil, grease, diesel, and God only knows what else that comes flying off speeding freight and passenger trains. Ever look at a Santa Fe diesel locomotive straining with 100 freight cars, or a speeding Amtrak GE P42 loco or a Metrolink EMD commuter? Those engines belch diesel fumes and particulate matter that 100 big rigs couldn’t match.
So why is the Surfrider Foundation not bugging the railroads to clean up their act as their equipment goes over the oily trestles that give Trestles its name? Why are they only concerned about South County Soccer Moms in minivans on a toll road invading their turf? Where is the outrage over the condition of the trestles and the dirty locomotives that roar across them routinely 24 hours per day?
I’ve never understood the misplaced outrage over this toll road that would have every modern filtration and green technology thrown at it? It seems there’s quite a bit of hypocrisy amongst the Surfrider Foundation and the pothead surfers who want to “Save Trestles!”
Implying that 100 big rigs is more efficient than a mile long freight train is absurd… Freight trains continue to be more efficient, at a factor of 3 times or greater than trucks, depending on distance.
Metrolink has been gradually replacing their EMDs with MPXpress Hybrids, which were the first to meet EPA Tier 1 standards.
Orange County doesn’t necessarily need more roads, they need a better working transit system. Remember that traffic jams occur primarily during rush hour. Only a small reduction of traffic volume would result in free flow speeds. It means commuters need more attractive options to single occupancy driving. More train service, more connecting bus service that are timed with train schedules, more vanpools, more carpools, more telecommuting, etc.
You can’t build your way out of congestion. The 55-405 interchange finished, what, 2 years ago and it’s already back to where it was before. Now, OCTA wants to redo it again. Same issue with the 5-55 interchange. Same with the 405 “improvements” between Harbor and Bristol. It’s not a new issue… it’s called induced demand. Basically, people make adjustments to their schedules based on what traffic conditions are like. When people realized the 55 flowed better… they dropped out of their vanpool to drive solo, or they left closer to rush hour than they would before.
Now, how to implement these additional transit options is the real hurdle. Orange County is massive geographically, but not in density. That is a real challenge for planners and why coordinating land use with transportation works well. We all saw what a great job Vancouver did with the Olympics at handling a mass amount of people with relatively few cars. 1.7 million daily trips on their Translink system during the Olympics.
Go check out the train tracks and trestle structures along the beach there. They are coated in slime and oil and diesel and black tarry gook (official term). And these fools are worried that more Camry’s driving along a modern freeway with filtration curbs and green technology in the pavement is worse than surfing next to those belching trains and dirty trestles?
Just go look at ‘em. I have. They are really gross.
Do you remember the broken promises the tollroad agency made when they built the 73? Hmm, no building along the tollroad, it would be paid off with 15 years and no taxpayer money. These are just a few of the broken promise and everyone should look forward to the 1.1 billion CA is going to be spending to bail out the 73 since it losing money each and every day. So I wonder how much this extension will end up costing the state of CA.
You’re telling me that freeway expansion is greener than rail transportation? Spoken like a true OC resident!
Troy. How about going back to High School and taking Science over again. You have absolutely no clue what your talking about.
The oil and Soot your talking about has nothing to do with Diesel emissions. It that was the case every mile of railroad across this country would be covered.
That oily substance you are talking about is called Creosote. It’s a coal based oil preservative that is used on railroad ties and bridge pilings from days gone past.
The railroad bridges that were build in this area were built over seventy years ago, all using Creosote as a preservative.
Orange County is the second densest county in California (behind San Francisco County). Same thing was said about Phoenix when they built their light rail, the ridership numbers are way above expected.
As a South County “soccer mom” (football, actually) I want to go on record that it is not only the “pothead surfers” who oppose this road, but many of us “soccer moms” too. And please be clear that we South Countians are not the ones who need this road, and the bottlenecks it’ll cause.
South county needs it the MOST for an Emergency Evacuation route. Until then all you nimby anti-toll roads- stay off the freeway so the rest of us can get to our JOBS.
Haahaahaa! We don’t want those Rancho Santa Margaritites coming to our beach either! Ewww…Ohhh NOOooo. Be careful not to disturb the gnats habitat. OHHhh NNOOOOOoooooo!!!
Troy, you need to understand the true motivation behind the Surfrider Foundation’s battle against the Toll Road. It has nothing to do with environmental concerns. The rub is that the toll road would give people that live inland fast and direct access to their sacred surfing spot. If the toll road were approved they think it would flood Trestles with inexperienced inlanders taking their waves.
These are the same people that compalin about how heavy the traffic is on the 5. They think that the answer is to widen the 5, which is not a real option. I’ve never seen so many people fight so hard to cut their nose off to spite their face.
Absolutely! It is all about the tasty waves.
IT IS TIME TO “SAVE SOMETHING!” in Southern Calif, especially Orange County (NOT the “OC”)! The “When in doubt PAVE it!” mentality must stop. The California Dream of my youth (and lots of others who were born and raised) is GONE, Between the developers mowing down trees to make subdivisions, then naming the streets after the trees and the attitude of people who crawled out of some Mid-Western corn field, like you, have destroyed it all.
SAVE SOMETHING! If Troy and the like-minded transplanted Troys ever took the time to get out of their cars and WALK the trail to Trestles, you might have a clue as to why the Trestles area should be saved. The last natural watershed in Southern California, undeveloped BEAUTIFUL beach and PEACE.
Quit watching the Beach Party movies portraying surfers as dumb and lazy. Some of the most healthy and intelligent people I know have surfed all of their PRODUCTIVE lives AND DON’T partake in drug activity=you are now also insulting OUR children.
The SURFRIDER FOUNDATION will be receiving a specific “SAVE TRESTLES” donation, along with my annual corporate donation to specifically combat the likes of you. Go back to your corn field, Orange County does not need you.
PS- I left Orange County years ago due to people like you. I am involved in Saving Something where I currently reside. Don’t ask where it is, you are not welcome!
SOOOOOO sick of clowns like you…
The above comment was directed to “TROY”
JOIN AND DONATE TO THE SURFRIDER FOUNDATION TODAY. SAVE SOMETHING FOR OUR CHILDERN!
It has nothing to do with that, Troy.
It’s all about NO NEW ROADS ANYWHERE.
The pony-tailed potheads would rather have cars sit in traffic (and belch exhaust fumes).
The car is the dominant form of life in So-Cal, some politicians and their pet groups cannot accept the fact. Most of them ought to be taxed for wasting the time and money of the people who stand to benefit.
Only in CA could something be this simple be so cumbersome.
i.m a long har pot head surfer native ! i’m all for it . blow me off the trestles !
true disco.
and that’s a fact that will not change.
I laugh when people say take the train. Take the train FROM where? TO where? Trains only work if the destination is very compact and dense. Downtown LA or San Diego for example. Even Wilshire corridor. But For most of suburban SoCal THEY DO NOT PENCIL. Not even close. Just step away from the bong and things will be OK. LOL.
when will tca realize no means no….we do not want any more toll roads….The impact is far to great, Orange County does not have much open space left. The once pristine Laguna Coast Wilderness park has the 73 going through it, the 241/261 runs right through a once pristine wildlife habitat. Enough is enough stop paving over our open spaces and start studying alternative forms of transit.
Anon:
Please visit San Diego, the Bay Area etc, they have great transportation alternatives to the car. The East and South bay are just as Suburban as Orange County (Orange County is denser than every other county in California but San Francisco) and you will see how they implemented mass transit alternatives.
I’m a fan of rail transportation, passenger or freight, but San Diego and San Fran built commuter rail systems to get to and from major downtown cores. OC has no central core, but rather a wide smattering of secondary mini-cores that could not support a dedicated rail system of any size.
Metrolink, heavy rail heading north to major employment centers (and spewing some pretty good diesel fumes along Trestles beach), is as good as it gets in OC. That is, if you don’t count the Disneyland Monorail from Tomorrowland to the cocktail lounge at the hotel. Although that’s the best ride in the park at happy hour!
Why do we have the TCA? we are paying to fund the enemy? Let’s get to the root of the problem!!!
If the nature of the type of training the Marines were a consideration, the tollway would not be allowed to be built. The tollway would impact national security concerns, something that the Marines would not want to disclose. Drop the proposal.
Exactly, and there was an article on here awhile back that the Commadant of the Marine Corps had done a letter I believe stating that I-5 will be the ONLY public road running through the base! So, after that why is it so hard for TCA to understand that it isnt going to happen??????
Not that much of an impact. Any country with a satellite can see what’s going on at Pendelton.
Also, Pendelton needs to be relocated, they are in the middle of three growing cities.
Smooth:
Wrong.
BART mostly gets people to and from downtown SF. (That “destination” I talked about.) I will give them credit for adding the airport link.
That’s it. If you want to get around the East Bay you do it by car.
End of story.
Wrong. If you want to get around the East Bay you get around by BART. Fremont-Richmond line. Faster than the 880 Monday thru Friday.
Erik,
We have TCA because the Irvine Company owned huge swaths of land in Newport Beach and Irvine and needed infrastructure to make their land more valuable. Remember before the mid 90′s most of what is now Irvine was dirt.
In order to develop South and East Irvine as well as Newport Coast the Irvine Company lobbied the County of Orange and Caltrans heavily to build “freeways” to make these proposed communities accessible. Once it was apparent there was no money from the taxpayer to build these “freeways” TCA was commissioned to build Toll Roads to connect these areas to Northern Orange County.
At the time TCA had a lot of clout since they had just built the most technologically advanced toll road in the world (91 Express Lanes), so it was natural for this concept to be used for these new highways. Without the 241/261/73, South Orange County would not be as developed as it is now.
Fast Forward to today, the 73 is a failure (operating loss that is subsidized by the taxpayer) the 241/261 is a success although it has led to a significant loss of open space and overdevelopment in the hills of Orange County. If the Toll Road is extended Rancho Mission Viejo will be fully developed (23,000 housing units).
So I ask the question to people in favor of extending the toll road….If this toll road is built how will it alleviate traffic? This toll road must be built in order for Rancho Mission Viejo to be fully developed. Will this not lead to more traffic and more congestion?
Right-o
So if the 241 isn’t completed Rancho Mission Viejo won’t be able to build any homes? Really? Someone better tell Tony Moiso that. Why hasn’t RMV been more active supporting the completion of the toll road? Because they don’t need it to build their homes.
20,000 homes are coming once the market turns around. Whether the road is there or not. The people are coming Ray. The people are most definitely coming.
page 35 and 36
http://dms.cityofmissionviejo.org/sirepub/cache/2/kq4aj2usslcnqn45ew5wsr55/212996003012010103036701.PDF
The EIR was drafted under the pretense that the foothill south toll road extension would be built….if it is not built the EIR would have to be re-drafted….The center piece of traffic circulation in the area was the extension….Do you have alternate information which show that the toll road extension was not listed in the EIR as a traffic mitigating measure?
anon,
that is completely false, we are not talking about specifically BART but about the CalTrains….Anyone who has spent any time in the bay area knows that commute is opposite from San Francisco to Silicon Valley. People commute from San Francisco to Silicon Valley not vice versa…..Remember San Jose is the biggest city in the bay area and most of the employment icenters are in San Jose not San Francisco.
This idea of working downtown does not hold any water…Nobody works in downtown anymore (save NYC and Chicago to a certain extent). More people work in West LA than Downtown LA….
smooth – at least you have an idea of what you are talking about, unlike most people one here. True re: WLA – Downtown. (Tho WLA is far more widely disperesed).
Let’s take a look at OC. I could see a transit node near Anaheim stadium, and near irvine spectrum. But where, beyond that, would it even close to pencilling out? Maybe the Jamboree Corridor from I-5 to JWA and UCI. That’s about it.
Nothing else comes close.
Anon
There are bigger problems than finding an alignment ,Orange County is full of NIMBY’s (Not In My Backyard) and this will play a pivotal role in the future of transportation in this county. In the late 90′s there was a proposal for a light rail (Centerline) that would have connected UCI, JWA, IBC, South Coast etc to Fullerton. After hundreds of millions of dollars were spent on EIR’s and other studies the project was killed by NIMBY’s.
The way I see it, the more roads we build the more development we will see ,which will increase traffic and just perpetuate the problem and delay the ultimate solution.
Furthermore Orange Counties infrastructure is not only taxed by residents who pay for it through taxes but also a heavy commuter population from the Inland Empire (who do not contribute significantly to the taxes which fund OCTA). So basically 3 million people are building, maintaining, infrastructure for 1-1.5 million more people. That is a significant reason why these toll roads will never become “freeways.” But I digress….
The ultimate solution is to provide a local seperated grade feeder system to the commuter rail that we already have. There are several types of mass transit guideways that can be utilized, I think Monorail would be the least invasive. We cannot even begin to explore this until we know that OCTA is committed to fixing the root of the problem instead of spending bllions of dollars on lobbying Washington for their bed buddy TCA to build more toll roads funded by taxpayer bonds.
EVERYPLACE is full of NIMBYs (Hence no Wilshire Corridor when the need has been plainly evident for 50 years).
Was it really NIMBYs who killed it? There’s not many NIMBY-capable residents along that route. It was cost, my friend.
Buses make far more sense.
The original Centerline concept actually was a project worth considering. It would have been very similar to Phoenix and Minneapolis’ light rail lines. Just a single line that connects a bunch of the major attractors and generators, as you had mentioned. Irvine Spectrum – SNA – South Coast Plaza – Santa Ana – The Block – Angel Stadium/Honda Center – Fullerton. Largely parallels the 405, 55, and 5.
When it got pared down to SNA to Santa Ana, it no longer made sense.
Will everyone on this message board who has ridden a public bus in the past week raise their hand? (**crickets**)
Yeah, that’s what I thought.
please read the latimes article:
http://articles.latimes.com/2003/jul/22/local/me-centerline22
The Irvine Nimby’s first opposed it then all the rest of the nimby’s followed
*Raises hand* Just took one today and will be hopping on another OCTA bus tomorrow.
Buses take to long.
To go from my apartment in Woodbridge to my office in Newport Beach, I had to get on 2/3 buses and it would take about 3 hours. Same trip in a car or my bike is about 30 minutes depending on the day and time.
The TCA will NOT give up until they get what they want.
The Toll Road is primarily for Rancho Mission Viejo to be developed.
No, No, No!
Let’s keep some open space!
One claim is that because of future traffic the 5 will be too busy. That is only true if homes are built in Rancho Mission Viejo. There is no other driver for the 5 to become more busy.
The 5 is jammed all the time from accidents, it would be nice to have an alternative route. More homes will be built no matter what, the population of the entire world is increasing and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
Its not about traffic. They couldn’t care less about how long you sit in traffic. They want to build the roads ALWAYS THROUGH OPEN SPACE, so they can have the state pay for infrastructure, AND THEY BUILD MORE HOMES which further congest the highways. Read it! About FUTURE TRAFFIC CONGESTION. They want to develop the helloutta the open space along the route.
Right on. The strategy of the big landowners is so transparently obvious: Diligently avoid any planning for transportation infrastructure so that it will ultimately be forced onto public lands, thus maximizing private profit.
I m 4 both sides!? This is what I mean; Their is a general consensus that their is a need for better transportation goin south out of the OC. First and formost to eliminate the real real need for evacution of the population in case of a disaster. Secondly, congestion and growth needs have to be addressed.
Now why I’m also for the opposition is because this forces those who want it, it forces them to be creative and forward thinking in solutions to the needs.
Every great endevor had opposition. Yet, when looking back at those things(i.e. Central Park in New York city) people eventually marveled at the designs and ideas.
So have it you two! Fight like hell because great things will come out of it.
ps. sorry for my bad spelling
After reading this article it should be clear that Surfrider has no desire to be part of the solution, they only want to be part of the problem.
No matter what TCA proposes, they will oppose it. It has nothing to do with environmentalism or protecting our watershed. It has to do with bringing “909″ surfers to “their” beach.
…and every day the traffic gets worse. Doing nothing is not an option.
Sally forth TCA! God speed, because heaven knows we can’t on the freeway.
Here is the bottom line. If you dont like the traffic in your area then move.
Who commutes to SD county from OC for work anyway? While I’m sure some people do the majority go north. So, if you leave in RSM, Ladera or anywhere else along the toll road move south and shut the hell up already.
I know someone who did the opposite, they drove on Monday morning and took the train home and drove the car home on Friday night so he had it on the weekend.
It seemed to work for him as his fiance/wife worked near the station he got off at. But that is one out of how many people?
This extension serves one purpose and only that purpose.
From the Rancho Mission Viejo web sight:
———————–
The Ranch Plan provides for the long-term (20 to 25 years) phased implementation of the following:
(Note: This was approved by the county supervisors in 2004)
Approximately 17,000 acres (or 75%) of the Ranch preserved as permanent natural open space for habitat and species protection as well as cattle grazing and citrus farming operations;
A mix of up to 14,000 homes (including 6,000 age-qualified homes) within small villages offering a broad variety of distinctive neighborhoods;
Sites for schools, places of worship, child care centers, shopping plazas, restaurants, business parks, and civic facilities;
Land for hiking/biking/equestrian trails, a regional sports park, a community meadow, lakes, golf courses, community and neighborhood parks, as well as equestrian facilities and the preservation of the Ranch’s historic Cow Camp, and
The construction of an arterial roadway system which will address current and future traffic concerns.
——————————————-
Note the last bullit point. None of this development can happen until the Toll Road is Completed.
Couple of interesting other facts.
Water Usage and Demand have never been addressed.
Power Supply and usage has never been addressed.
Sewer and Flood control have never been addressed.
Facts that have been addressed:
Traffic on Oso Parkway, Crown Valley and Ortega Highway cannot support any growth or development of land in this area.
Hmmmmm, makes you think does it not?
Some of the data on this site is old, but the trends are even more clear today than when originally posted.
TCA is a shell game, and their roads are a joke.
They carry a fraction of the traffic parallel freeways do, and because of their massive debt even in prosperous times their high tolls will continue push traffic off onto our freeways.
Toll roads create the illusion of highway capacity and that in part perpetuates the myth that an car-dominant transportation system is the only viable vision for Orange County. It’s not. Private automobiles will always play a major role in moving commuters, but OC’s density is high enough NOW that rail and other alternatives are as viable here as other urban regions. Smart planning will make them even more so.
Abolish the TCA. Settle the private debt for a negotiated cents on the dollar, free up the tollways– and we’ll save $-billions in future freeway expansion.
TCA is EVIL. Like a festering Tower of Babel, TCA is THE perfect textbook example of why we have anti-development laws and state parks. TCA has one goal; $$$$$. And they are more than willing to trample opinions, state parks and laws to get their way. And, more importantly, they WILL NOT GO AWAY, unless we vote them away – something which is long overdue!
The real problem are/were the builders that built this county. The county should have mandated that builders create roads to accomodate the traffic caused by their new housing. Builders build it, sell it and walk away with lots of $$ and leave the everyone stuck in traffic. 2 lane roads through most of So County sucks…..oh and then they build 3 story appartment units and another and another and we have to keep driving the same roads. Hold the builders accountable.
He is another thing to think about; The number of Surfers who use Tresles. I went their in the seventies all the time. Very cool place because limited number of surfers in the water. Now, well it’s packed on almost any given day.
I had two kids and my best friend had seven kids. They are all grown and they all drive and they all surf at Tresles. Now they are married and they are going to have kids….. You can see where this is going.
We are going to have to close Tresles! Or at the very least regulate the number of surfers and or people who use this beach. They bring in their trash and etc.
Folks, we need ideas to manage growth because growth happens! You can’t stop it.
Just saying no new roads is actually not the answer.
The Surfrider Foundation should be re-named to the Ostrich Foundation. They have their heads in the sand. The population increase and new roads are bigger than their idyllic little slice of America. Ask the Native Americans how it feels to be overrun.
How is this thing supposed to alleviate traffic? There will still be a back-up heading south to San Diego where the 241 will meet the 5. The 5 south is a parking lot through San Clemente, especially on the weekends. Money could be better spent investing into alternate forms of transportation, especially for safer bike routes. Trains may be limited, but you can get anywhere with a train or bus and a bike. Using the 241 as an evacuation route, now that is funny. From what and to where? you are not going anywhere.
Did you bother to look at the map? This is south of San Clemente and South of Son Onofre where there is nothing and no traffic.
Maybe you’re new to California, but people here drive cars. The ONLY answer to traffic congestion is to build more roads, or outlaw cars.
One way or another more roads are going to be built. May not be now or any time soon, but eventually people will have enough of the congestion and the cries of the tree-hugger and the enviro-nazi will fall on deaf ears.
Yes, I did look at the map. I also saw where it goes right though the middle of the Donna O’neill Land Conservancy. Oh the irony. It will still be a bottleneck heading south.
Maybe you have never driven south of San Clemente, but there is plenty of traffic. I am very aware of the fact that people in California drive cars, since I was born and have lived in SoCal all of my life. Hell I even own a couple of cars.
The main reason so many people have to drive is because there are very few alternatives. If we give people safe alternatives we can get people out of their cars. More roads is not the ONLY answer.
Though I do think your idea of outlawing cars is a little too progressive for the OC. Better watch out or people may start calling you a liberal.
All the idiots for this toll road through Trestles are the same jackasses that do not even live here and will be using this road strictly for their daily commutes. They are not the ones who have to deal with the impact that it has on our town.
As long as they keep appealing to have a toll road built, we locals will keep fighting it, so FU!!!!!
The put the toll road through RSM years ago and guess what? We are still alive, the world has not stopped rotating! We still have animals in O’Neill, the grass is still green, our air is still ok to breathe.
How is San Onofre different? If it eases the stop and go traffic on the 5 a bit, wouldn’t that help the local residents? Make your air a tiny bit cleaner?
A) An excuse to develop
B) Coto/FR/RSM/Dove Canyon do not want more traffic going through their cities.
Don’t like the traffic b/c you live by San Onofre? Move.
I live in RSM and want the extension!!!
There are silly arguments, both pro and con. Silliest arguments against toll road (about half) go something like this:
EVIL! MONEY! TCA! DEVELOPERS! PROFITS!
Just mix and match the words in any sequence you like.
You forgot Halliburton. C’mon, you just KNOW Halliburton HAS to be involved somehow. LOL LOL LOL
I worry for this next generation. Their socialist teachers have done a fine job brainwashing them.
We are cooked as a nation.
Penelton has said “NO” so why are they wasteing their time with this?
Since moving to Mission Viejo I have learned first hand that the 241 extension is needed. I currently have a choice in getting to the Barranca/Jamboree area of Irvine from my home near the 241, take El Torro Rd to the 5 or take the toll road. The surface route (El Toro) is a painful drive with it’s congestion and stop lights while the toll road is faster, yet I have to consider the added expense of using the toll road.
Getting to points South on the 5 is a joke. Stop & go traffic adds so much pollution and God forbid that we had to all go South at the same time. Build the 241 extension and get some of the through traffic off of our local routes. Residents of the IE will take the 241 and as a result there will be fewer cars on the 5, 55 & 91. With the current toll structure those using it are the ones paying for it.
By the way, I used to surf and smoke pot. I have grown up now and deal with reality every day.
(big brother is watching, listening, and now knows you once inhaled) Ohhh NNNOOOOOooooo!!!
We need the extension! Southbound 5 is so busy, it is ridiculous. Crown Valley and Ortega are both practically unusable due to traffic. We need to do something!
Well said Smoothoperator!!! All these Tollroad wanting idiots would love for all of our few beautiful rolling hills and open space natural parks to be paved over, built on with more homes and Walmarts so they can drive back and forth to try and satisfy their lust for consuming till it’s all gone and thrown into a landfill. Then what, on to NorCal, the Eastern Sierra and Yosemite. Just take it all and pave it over so we can all waste it quicker. Who cares about our kids and what they get to enjoy?!? Just as long as I – ME – can get MY super sized meal and sit in front of my Big Screen in time for MY time.
What are people concerned about nature here? Go to the Sequoias; that’s nature.
The hills around SoCal are nothing more than non-native species that’s a tinder box most of the year.
This place is a desert.
Roads are more valuable than a patch of dead grass.
Yep OC is gone. When people who think like you prevail, the planet is next.
OC has been gone. Every since the Spanish came.
And if you think humans can destroy the planet, you’re not thinking at all.
seriously, if San-O had a radioactive leak, there would be no way out for sc residents… the 5 would be so jammed that you better have a 4wd vehicle to get out of dodge via an alternative route! – lucky i do – I will go east through the hills as everyone on the 5 (the only way out) will turn into green radioactive monsters!!!!!! hahahahhahahhaha
Storm Rider and Lucifer -
Perfect examples of silly thinking, both pro- and con-.
-It’s not a desert. The chaparral is quite beautiful.
-Even if fully built out Rancho Mission Viejo would leave 75% open space. That seems like a fair compromise.
If every member of Surfrider and the chapparel huggers would bulldoze their houses, replant native vegetation, and leave, the need for new roads and development would evaporate. Hypocrites who enjoy the benefits of our infrastructue, all the while railing against it.
The main argument for the toll road is “congestion on the five”. How many of you have driven to S.D.? Congestion at the junction of the 5 and 405. South of S.C. one normally get congestion on the five at Oceanside due to connection to roads heading to Vista, Temecula and such. After that it is open until one gets to Encintias due to the hill and the 5,580,52 area. Where ever there is another main artery there is congestion. If one gets on the 5 in Santa Ana before 3pm you have nearly open road all the way to downtown San Diego on the week days. Going North on the 5 from S.D. one gets congestion again at nearly the same locations for the same reasons. The biggest congestion is just after S.C. due to the junction of the toll roads , 405, 55, 22, 57. The real problem is that we want to get somewhere fast. The only way to do that is to provide either more roads or better and cheaper mass transportation or limiting the number of cars and movement of the population. That takes one into a “1984″ big brother . There is an alternative however that I think would work especially during rush hours, and that is switchable lanes. Build lanes like S.D is doing on the 15.
Some people just don’t know how to take “no” for an answer. The toll road won’t alleviate traffic, will pollute the last freeflowing and pure watershed in the area, and will add to overal congestion and density in the area, most of which will not use the toll road, but the freeway (there’s a reason they use that term, “free” in the name).
Widen the 5 – NOT through the center of San Clemente, as toll road proponents love to claim would happen or is necessary, but from Avenida Pico on north, in both diredctions. Lots of shoulder space for new lanes, no businesses etc need be sacrificed, and the real bottlenecks going north (especially), where the traffic from Talega, the Reserve etc pounrs onto the 5 at Vista hermosa and Pico, get handled.
The toll road commission is a master of building white elephants that serve the people of the area less than they serve the land developers who want a quick buck. We don’t need another 73 in south county.
The point that I was making is that congestion is apparent in locations of major roads converging. The only real possible solutions is some way traffic flow control or better mass transit options. I agree that extending the 241 will not solve the problem. Build more roads brings more autos and more congestion in later years and the same argument will appear for more roads. Perhaps a use tax for drivers of our highways (freeways) would spur a demand for reasonable mass transit like that seen on the East Coast between D.C. and N.Y.C
IT IS TIME TO “SAVE SOMETHING!” in Southern Calif, especially Orange County (NOT the “OC”)! The “When in doubt PAVE it!” mentality must stop. The California Dream of my youth (and lots of others who were born and raised) is GONE, Between the developers mowing down trees to make subdivisions, then naming the streets after the trees and the attitude of people who crawled out of some Mid-Western corn field, like you, have destroyed it all.
SAVE SOMETHING! If Troy and the like-minded transplanted Troys ever took the time to get out of their cars and WALK the trail to Trestles, you might have a clue as to why the Trestles area should be saved. The last natural watershed in Southern California, undeveloped BEAUTIFUL beach and PEACE.
Quit watching the Beach Party movies portraying surfers as dumb and lazy. Some of the most healthy and intelligent people I know have surfed all of their PRODUCTIVE lives AND DON’T partake in drug activity=you are now also insulting OUR children.
The SURFRIDER FOUNDATION will be receiving a specific “SAVE TRESTLES” donation, along with my annual corporate donation to specifically combat the likes of you. Go back to your corn field, Orange County does not need you.
PS- I left Orange County years ago due to people like you. I am involved in Saving Something where I currently reside. Don’t ask where it is, you are not welcome!
SOOOOOO sick of clowns like you…
JOIN AND DONATE TO THE SURFRIDER FOUNDATION TODAY. SAVE SOMETHING FOR OUR CHILDREN!
The ONLY thing that could possibly save the balance of Orange County is a Santa Barabra style moratorium on building and new roads. If you want your property values to increase it is absolutely necessary to moratorium. As it is there are scores of empty forecloseable homes now and a lot more available very very soon. MORATORIUM=INCREASED VALUE
Jerkys who oppose the road. I don’t care if it’s a toll road, a free road or whatever-everyone from Alaska south HAS to go through this stretch. We simply must have a solution to the traffic congestion and nightmare that is South Orange County-period. I’m from Newport, live in Capo Beach (and miss the open country-especially between Newport and Laguna) but if you live here, you know the absolute need for another way for people to get through. The impact on our lives is terrible and we can’t even go out on the weekends anymore. Get an electric car and stop complaining.
There has not been ONE empirical study to show that a new toll road improves traffic flow.
73, 91, 241 – All of these have not done anything to alleviate traffic woes on public FWYs.
It is a myth dreamed up by the private groups that seek to build even MORE homes in our crowded county.
What they have done is fracture wilderness and degraded life for the current residents.
We’ve seen what they have done to San Diego and they want the same for here.
There will be NO MORE private roads built on public lands.
OK Johnny, fair enough-then make it a public access, I have no problem with that but Caltrans is just fixing all the freeways and we know as soon as they’re done, they’re packed again-this is no solution either. When you propose a real solution to the nightmare (and we can all agree on this) that is South OC traffic, then you can talk. This is at least a solution-whether you agree or not. Rather than just complain about it-offer a solution to the table-I’m all ears and I’m sure others would be. Until then-keep quiet.